Curse

Winstar · Nov 08, 2007, 01:41 AM // 01:41

i love the new maps.

If people want RA/TA to be constant 4v4 elim style fine. But open a new arena that is 4 human HB maps cause they are strategically a lot more interesting. Don't abandon the idea.

ensoriki · Nov 08, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Just Give Hero Battles 2 ways of entering, the normal way of Start Battle and boom your there, and then there should be an NPC, where if you talk to him with your team lets you participate.

Ergo you can have human teams in HB

But it won't affect TA.

Sephiroth Istari · Nov 08, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

The point of RA was to have a fun, easy place for newer people to dip their feet into pvp. It was also meant to be a place for quick battles.

Now with the new map additions, both of those are gone. The Hero battles maps will take much more time for newer players to learn fully, and battle times are now extended (generally).

ensoriki · Nov 08, 2007, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Well theres always AB

Which was always more fun than RA

Problem was getting in >.>

Lets just Delete TA and RA servers and put in more AB and aspeen wood and jade quary servers (funny tho...I never played Jade or Aspenwood)

salaboB · Nov 08, 2007, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

i love the new maps.

If people want RA/TA to be constant 4v4 elim style fine. But open a new arena that is 4 human HB maps cause they are strategically a lot more interesting. Don't abandon the idea.

At a minimum it should only be TA, where you might be expected to have more teamwork and be interested in the challenge of the strategy (And wasted skill slot on a rez signet, and packing run skills that weaken the rest of your build, etc...but hey, it's a challenge right?) as opposed to RA where these maps are making me think I'm back post-dishonor status.

Can you imagine how bad the leaving would be if people didn't get hit with dishonorable for it?

Winstar · Nov 08, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by salaboB

At a minimum it should only be TA, where you might be expected to have more teamwork and be interested in the challenge of the strategy (And wasted skill slot on a rez signet, and packing run skills that weaken the rest of your build, etc...but hey, it's a challenge right?) as opposed to RA where these maps are making me think I'm back post-dishonor status.

Can you imagine how bad the leaving would be if people didn't get hit with dishonorable for it?

I don't see why these maps are so bad for RA. It doesn't take that much thinking and coordination to play well on these maps and the other team is at the same disadvantage as you are. I've had people come that come in and resign right away and complain about losing all the time because of the maps. Seriously, its not the maps fault. Use the little compass. Demanding a little more awareness a bit more flexibility out of skill bars is no bad thing.

These maps actually make it better for no monk teams as well. If you play smart you probably have a better chance of winning than if u just played 4v4 straight up.

-Pluto- · Nov 08, 2007, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Yes, the other team is at the same disadvantage... but that doesn't make it any fun. The hero battle game type is based around coordinating heroes, but RA has no coordination. This game style and RA are incompatible. All this game type really does is make you feel even less in control of your team's success or failure. It makes it just a bit too random--and yes, I am aware that this is a bit ironic.

Tried it again today, mostly because I got bored enough complaining about RA to try it again and see if I maybe would change my mind. Won probably a bit over half of the matches on those maps, but ended up being even more frustrated than before. People in RA don't resign, so when I did lose after about a minute (where it's 5-0 and they have all shrines capped, and half you team has just leeroyed into them again), you end up having to spend 7-9 more minutes in GW Hell unless you're willing to take dishonor. Fortunately, RA is so RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing terrible, dishonor starts to feel less and less like a punishment. Entering RA in the first place and getting a hero-battle map is punishment enough. Giving me dishonor is like punishing me for chopping my hand off. I'm just not going to care at that point. Even the wins get boring when you noob-stomp them for 8 minutes

I heard Fury is offering a free 10-day trial though, so I guess now's as good a time as any to try that out. Maybe this is the explanation behind the "new" RA maps still being around, yeah? Perhaps Auran payed them to do it so people would be more likely to get Fury? I imagine it has to be something like that, since the decision to keep these around any longer doesn't make sense otherwise.

edit: I would like to clarify, however, that this is my experience in RA. I haven't really gotten to try this in TA, so I'm not really sure how this works there. I imagine it could be pretty interesting, forcing more balanced builds to be ran in order to cope with both elimination as well as capping maps. Maybe this is the case; maybe it's not. I wouldn't know. Either way, the intentions, at least in putting these maps into TA, seem pretty good to me. They do not work, either in concept or in practice, for the RA environment.

glountz · Nov 08, 2007, 09:49 AM // 09:49

I played a water capper ele on these maps. I win most of HB maps with a little b riefing before the match starts and when not paired with complete nubs.
Do I find it fun anyway? No. That's simply not TA. I don't like capping and running. Elimination is less about tactics than positionning and individual skill.
Just bring TA maps into HB then. I'm sure HBers will be happy and that will promote "build diversity and skill".

Winstar · Nov 08, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Pluto-

People in RA don't resign, so when I did lose after about a minute (where it's 5-0 and they have all shrines capped, and half you team has just leeroyed into them again), you end up having to spend 7-9 more minutes in GW Hell unless you're willing to take dishonor. Fortunately, RA is so RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing terrible, dishonor starts to feel less and less like a punishment. Entering RA in the first place and getting a hero-battle map is punishment enough. Giving me dishonor is like punishing me for chopping my hand off. I'm just not going to care at that point. Even the wins get boring when you noob-stomp them for 8 minutes

This I will agree with. You're right that the matches are too long which has been said before somewhere in this thread. This doesn't pair well the tendency of RA teams not resigning when they should. If they are kept they need to lower the point count or something. Furthermore leaving when its a foregone conclusion doesn't work because of dishonor. So all that needs work.

But I still don't see why the game style itself is bad. I've had a lot of teams where good coordination won games. Its not like you vent with these people but typing some ideas before a match and draw on the mini map and then just basic awareness of where you can go to be effective are all useful and possible. I've had some crap teams as well that simply don't know what to do, and then it sucks cause we're back to long waits for no reason. Yet thats a separate issue.

Ultimately if people really would prefer RA to be a staightforward 4v4 annhilation/killcount thats fair. I just hope that the idea of 4 real people on HB style maps isn't abandoned as its a fun game type.

Winstar · Nov 08, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I played a water capper ele on these maps. I win most of HB maps with a little b riefing before the match starts and when not paired with complete nubs.
Do I find it fun anyway? No. That's simply not TA. I don't like capping and running. Elimination is less about tactics than positionning and individual skill.
Just bring TA maps into HB then. I'm sure HBers will be happy and that will promote "build diversity and skill".

I don't see how there is less individual skill and positioning importance in an HB style match. 4v4 elimination is pretty much the simplest screnario. Its like fighting 8v8 in GvG at the flagstand. No doubt its skill intensive and positioning is important, but the real difference making plays often begin with splits, collapses, pushes on runnners. Individual awareness and knowing what to do on your own and how to be maximally effective in a match requires more skill than just 8v8ing. You still need to know how to play your bar and have positional awaresness, but there are other factors in addition to this.

glountz · Nov 08, 2007, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

I don't see how there is less individual skill and positioning importance in an HB style match. 4v4 elimination is pretty much the simplest screnario. Its like fighting 8v8 in GvG at the flagstand. No doubt its skill intensive and positioning is important, but the real difference making plays often begin with splits, collapses, pushes on runnners. Individual awareness and knowing what to do on your own and how to be maximally effective in a match requires more skill than just 8v8ing. You still need to know how to play your bar and have positional awaresness, but there are other factors in addition to this.

What I said. What will make you gain elimination is not split decisions or split builds. That's the way you play. There's no tactics, split decisions, and strategy. If you fail, the whole team fail, especially in TA where the mistake often means a death. In 8v8, a mistake can be recovered. If one of your monk fail, there's the other etc... Also, in 8v8, if the other team is good but, say, make a bad split decision (for example their team build is not builded for split, and they face heavy splitters on the other team), even if they have better personnal skill, they will loose. In TA, there was no such decisions to take, that's your individual skill and the build you chose that would make you win or loose.

Winstar · Nov 08, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

What I said. What will make you gain elimination is not split decisions or split builds. That's the way you play. There's no tactics, split decisions, and strategy. If you fail, the whole team fail, especially in TA where the mistake often means a death. In 8v8, a mistake can be recovered. If one of your monk fail, there's the other etc... Also, in 8v8, if the other team is good but, say, make a bad split decision (for example their team build is not builded for split, and they face heavy splitters on the other team), even if they have better personnal skill, they will loose. In TA, there was no such decisions to take, that's your individual skill and the build you chose that would make you win or loose.

Agreed. But the same thing applies for hb maps. The same pressures of 4v4 play are still there, but with the additional tactical and awareness issues.

Phaern Majes · Nov 08, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I know for sure that the update has *not* eliminated the stronger gimmicks from TA. Solo gimmicks like A/Mo, R/P, D/P, and team gimmicks like spirit spam, D/Mo Zergway and the different variations of Warmonger-way, all still work, and some arguably work better in HB than 4v4.

So, exactly which problematic gimmicks have been forced out of TA because of the update?

I never said it forced any out. I said it discourages some. For instance, my RA team made it to the TA's and after about our 3rd win in the TA's we were put up against a spirit spam build, on a shrine map. We were unable to really kill them, so rather than stand there and let them kill us we just ran around and capped shrines. We won due almost entirely to our capping. Now I'm not saying these cookie cutter builds can't play on holding/capping maps, just that people who don't really know how to run the build can't adapt them to the new maps and are "discouraged". And I suspect they are the ones mostly complaining about the maps in TA's. Cookie cutters will always exist I'm just saying most people don't have skill and while anyone can push buttons I'm willing to bet most people who use them don't understand how the build (as a team) really works.

That said I don't TA and don't care either way. I also don't know how the builds work because I don't run them, however, were I to run them I'd make sure I understood it first. That way when the objectives of the map change I can adapt my strategy, or possibly change out a skill or two, to fit the new map.

Not to mention the majority of the maps are still the same so those builds will always continue to work, its just a matter, of being able to win consecutively, that has changed.

IlikeGW · Nov 08, 2007, 08:17 PM // 20:17

I like the way it is now. Old TA/RA had virtually no tactical concern to it at all. I think the people most upset are those that run the same exact thing for months on end/farm points... aka people who think they're elite for their dull grinding ways.

Sword · Nov 08, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Changes suck.

In the past I could frequently be found in RA (fun/relaxing arena...and im a bit of a glad point junkie), I went in once after update ...learned of changes, and did not travel to RA once over the double weekend.

ValaOfTheFens · Nov 09, 2007, 04:36 AM // 04:36

These maps ruined last weekend for me. Most people were just doing it for the weekend and so in some matches both teams were trying to figure out what to do. I just wanted to test some new builds and skills and maybe get some Glad points. I quit after 2 hours of frustrating 4 game streaks getting messed up by the HB map.

that1dude · Nov 09, 2007, 04:48 AM // 04:48

ya this is realllllly lame. i mean if we wanted to go do Hero Battles we would go do Hero Battles, right?

maraxusofk · Nov 09, 2007, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Are these maps frigging taken out yet? i havent done any ta at all since the intro of last week, and i refuse to do it as its a waste of time and/or boring. after 12 pages of qq'ing, u'd think anet would take these hb maps out.

sagilltwins · Nov 09, 2007, 06:05 AM // 06:05

/agree

This is Random Arenas and Team Arenas not Random Arenas + Hero Battles or Team Arenas + Hero Battles.

MoldyRiceFrenzy · Nov 09, 2007, 06:32 AM // 06:32

yep dishonor doesnt sux nemore compared to how much hb sucked, it was relieving to leave and get 10 minutes off...

but neways, did they bring hb out of maps yet? i played alittle today and didnt see it so...